Copenhagen, Denmark – On a frigid Saturday morning in Copenhagen, Ilan Pappe warmed up in a movie theater, chatting and joking in fluent Arabic with one of the organizers of a conference at which he would soon speak between sips of black coffee from a paper cup.
Unlike other Israelis, Pappe said, he learned the language “of the colonized” by spending time in Palestine, surrounding himself with Palestinian friends and taking formal Arabic lessons.
Hundreds of academics, officials, international rights activists and ordinary Danes horrified by Israel’s genocide against Palestinians in Gaza attended the event in the Danish capital, organized by the European Palestine Network.
The group was recently founded and its members include Danes of Palestinian descent.
Pappe later told the audience that since the outbreak of Israel’s latest war against Gaza, Europe’s response has surprised him.
“I share with many people the surprise at the European position,” he said on stage. “Europe, which claims to be a model of civilization, ignored the most televised genocide of modern times.”
On the sidelines, Al Jazeera interviewed Pappe, 70, a prominent Israeli historian, author and professor who has spent much of his life fighting for Palestinian rights. We asked him about Zionism, solidarity, and what he thinks a changing American political landscape means for Gaza.
Al Jazeera: You have long said that the tools of Zionism, the nationalist political ideology that called for the creation of a Jewish state, included land capture and evictions. For the past 15 months, Gaza has suffered daily mass killings. What stage of Zionism are we witnessing?
Ilan Pappé: We are in a state that can be defined as neo-Zionist. The old values of Zionism are now more extreme, (in) a much more aggressive way than before, trying to achieve in a short time what the previous generation of Zionists tried to achieve in (a) a much longer time, more incremental, way. gradual.
This is an attempt by a new leadership of Zionism to complete the work they started in 1948, that is, to officially take over all of historic Palestine and get rid of as many Palestinians as possible and in the same process, and (that is) something new, the creation of a new Israeli empire that is feared or respected by its neighbors and that, therefore, can even expand territorially beyond the borders of historical or obligatory Palestine.
Historically, I am willing to say with some caution that this is the last phase of Zionism. Historically, these developments in ideological movements, whether colonial or empire, are usually the final chapter (i.e.) the most ruthless, the most ambitious. And then it’s too much and then they fall and collapse.
Al Jazeera: We are days away from a new political landscape as Donald Trump heads to the White House for the second time. He has an even stronger voice on social media with tech billionaire and X owner Elon Musk, who praises Israeli policies and its military, among the top figures in his administration. How do you think the presidency will influence Israel? Will the war in Gaza continue?
Cardboard: It is very difficult to see anything positive during Trump’s second term and with his associations with Elon Musk.
The future of Israel and Zionism is connected to the future of the United States.
I don’t think all Americans are Trump supporters. I don’t think all Americans are supporters of Elon Musk.
(But) I’m afraid there’s not much that can be done in the next two or three years.
The only good news is that populist leaders like (US President-elect Donald) Trump and crazy people like Elon Musk are not very capable. They are going to bring down the American economy and the American international standing with them, so it will end badly for the United States if these types of personalities are going to lead it.
In the long term, I think it may lead to less US involvement in the Middle East. And for me, a scenario in which American participation is minimal is a positive scenario.
We need international intervention not only in Palestine but in the entire Arab world, but it has to come from the Global South and not the Global North. The Global North has left such a legacy that very few people would consider someone from the Global North to be an honest broker. I’m very concerned about the short term, I don’t want to be misunderstood. I see no force that can stop the short-term disasters that await us.
When I look at the bigger picture, I think we are at the end of a very bad chapter for humanity, not the beginning of a bad chapter.
Al Jazeera: There are currently ceasefire negotiations. When do you expect Palestine to enjoy peace?
Cardboard: I don’t know, but I think that even a ceasefire in Gaza is not the end, unfortunately, because of the genocide. Hopefully, there will be enough power to, if not stop it, at least tame or limit it.
In the long term I see a process that is long. I’m talking about 20 years, but I think we’re at the beginning of this process.
It is a process of decolonization of a settler colonial project.
It can go in any direction. We know it from history. Decolonization can be very violent and not necessarily produce a better regime, or it can be an opportunity to build something much better, beneficial for all concerned and for the area as a whole.
Al Jazeera: To Palestinians and many observers, it seems as if the world is simply standing by while Israel expands into its neighbors and carries out genocide with impunity.
Cardboard: Well, a last stage from a historical point of view is a long process. It is not an immediate process. It’s not a question of if, but when. And that could definitely take time.
There are advances at the regional and global level that allow this phase to continue. Whether it is the rise of populist politicians like Trump, the power of multinational corporations, the rise of fascism, the new right-wing fascism in Europe, the level of corruption in some of the Arab countries, everything works in a way that sustains an alliance global alliance that allows Israel to do what it does, but there is another alliance.
It doesn’t have the same power, but it is widespread and connected to many other fights against injustice. It is very possible that, if not in the immediate future, then a little later, this kind of global sentiment that focuses not only on Palestine, but also on global warming, poverty, immigration, etc., will become a more powerful political force. Each small victory of that other global alliance brings the Zionist project closer to its end.
Al Jazeera: What does this other alliance have to do with it? What could help your cause?
Cardboard: There are two things. First, we do not have an organization that contains this goodwill, the support, the solidarity, this energy to fight against injustice. It needs a proper organization and some of the young people who are part of this alliance seem to not like, for good reasons, organizations and so on. But you need this infrastructure.
The second thing is to abandon the purist approach that these movements had in the past and create networks and alliances that take into account that people do not agree even on fundamental issues, but that they can work together to stop a genocide in Gaza, to free the colonized peoples. .
Al Jazeera: Returning to the most powerful alliance that you say defends Zionism, you talked about the rise of the far right in Europe. However, there are still tensions of anti-Semitism among them.
Cardboard: This unholy alliance was there from the beginning. If you think about it logically, both anti-Semites and Zionists, when it comes to Europe, had the same goal: they did not want to see Jews in Europe. Seeing them in Palestine could be a goal of both the Zionist movement and the anti-Semitic movement.
Now there is a new layer of uniformity of ideas between the neo-right and Israel, and this is Islamophobia.
The new right now, although it still has strong anti-Jewish, i.e. anti-Semitic, elements, is mainly targeting Muslim and Arab communities. It is not addressed in particular to Jewish communities.
They see Israel as the most important anti-Islamic and anti-Arab force in the world, so there is identification on that level as well, but of course it is something that Jews would regret outside of Israel if they were part of such an alliance. Even pro-Israel Jews in Europe feel a little uncomfortable with those who dress in the Israeli flag, but at the same time the Nazi flag.
Hopefully, it will make them rethink their association with Israel. We already see signs, especially in the American Jewish community among the younger generation, that they understand that Israel is now part of a political alliance that they, as American Jews, cannot identify with.
As we say, it allows Israel to continue thanks to Trump and populist leaders, but it is also something that will not be forever in the future.
Al Jazeera: The genocide has led many, including some Jewish groups, to study the creation of Israel and the historic ethnic cleansing of Palestine. Have you seen families divided by their understanding of the conflict?
Cardboard: It doesn’t happen (in Israel), but it definitely happens in Jewish families outside of Israel.
The amount of information flowing is such that the younger generation cannot go blind. Even if they receive a very good Jewish education, even more so, they can see the immorality of the Israeli action.
This is primarily an intergenerational conflict, which is a positive sign because it means the current generation could be much more uniform in this position.
Al Jazeera: But within Israel, young people also have access to documentation of the genocide on social media, on platforms like TikTok. But many still ignore Palestinian suffering.
Cardboard: They did not receive the same education as young Jews in the United States. They received an education from a very indoctrinated country. And that is the key. They were produced, if you will, designed by the Israeli educational system.
I wrote an article in 1999 warning that if we look at the Israeli curricula, the next graduates of this system would be racist fanatics, extremists, and dangerous to themselves and others. Unfortunately, he was absolutely right.
This is the product of a very indoctrinated society from the cradle to the grave.
These people need to be re-educated. You can’t just show them things and expect it to move them.
They can see dead Palestinian babies and say, “Good, very good.” Dehumanization is part of the Israeli DNA and it is very difficult to deal with it simply by giving them more information.
